BP_Lori, when are Lines going to dominate Escorts as advertised?

[Paradox3713]

Originally Posted by Cybor-Bot

The proper order of balance has not been thought out with any real consideration to ship to ship balance.

1. Lines

2. Escorts

3. Strikes

Logically the Lines should kill them all, escorts should kill strikes hands down and in groups kill lines, and strikes in numbers will defend lines from escorts and missiles that threaten the lines which are almost helpless unless they have a pd weapon which also lacks proper firing arcs.

I partially like your thoughts on this but don't think I care for using Strikes as missile killers. In another thread a long time ago where we were talking about making the game more the way it should be the thought was that Carriers are considered Line class. The Carriers would be given Flak, PD, and very long range missiles to help fight other Carriers with. Lines were grouped with Escorts and became re-designated Escorts. They primarily fought other Escorts but depending upon the size some of them would have more Flak than PD or more PD than Flak. Their job is to either kill other Escorts or sit next to Carriers and help defeat missiles or Strikes that got through the first line of defense. Strike are considered the first line of defense. They engage other Strikes and try to get in to attack the Carrier. This means that more than likely they will have to carrier at least one missile launcher. When all is said and done the side that can get their missiles on target to the enemy carrier and kill it would obviously be victorious. So try and picture that setup with like three carriers filled with Strikes and the carriers surrounded by Escorts slugging it out. Oh and about he Carrier missiles it would take a lot of hits to take one out so a single strike may have quite the time with it. Also they would be really fast so the missile could end up outside of a players optimal range if they don't get to it fast.

I don't know about you but that sounds way much better than the fleet battles we have now.

As is I have parked my line and only use it in fleet battles or op defense, I have gone back to the drawing board and bought a Liche and will use it until the matter is worked out and yes I love this ship its like a line with the speed of a strike.

Careful with that last statement. You say things like that and they'll pull your Escort Fraternity Card. LOL!

Originally Posted by UberDude2

But hey if you can get my Line cannons more Accuracy in your Crusade to Make Lines more powerful VS escorts then I'm all for it!

Hey I'm okay with it being called a crusade. Escort jockeys had their own crusade to have Strikes nerfed. It happened and to many Strike pilots we call it The Great Nerf Crusade of August 2011. The only thing now is to find out if the right thing will be done or not.

I think the Cannon Accuracy and Avoidance system needs to have more added to it. I would think that accuracy would raise if an Escort/Line is flying straight out you? And Accuracy would increase the closer the Line/Escort got to the cannons.. Its as if Point Blank Range doesn't exist in this game.. If your flying Right next to another Line/Escort in a fight and firing your cannons at them and they are within 100m of your cannons, how can you miss?

I think the Cannon system needs to be redone and cannon Rounds behave like Missiles.. In other words.. You don't take damage until the cannon round impacts your hull.. Cannon fire would receive a more spread pattern of fire so that less rounds would impact the greater the distance..

That would do away with the need for Avoidance/Accuracy equations.. Either the rounds hits or it doesn't.. same with missiles.. They either hit you or you manage to dodge them..

Trust me we all felt the same way a year ago. But the DEVs were successful in making the majority of people believe that it was all calculations to reduce lag since it is a browser game. I never believed it and really still don't. It may be a browser game but the data files are loaded to your system before play anyway so it's really no different than if you had a DLC game. As long as your computer is squared away and you have a good download link and ping. You're going to be fine. I found out before I switched to 50Mbits Down and 15 Up, that I was still getting a ping of 5 to 10ms. Now it's about 15-20 but that's not messing anything up on my side. Still have to try it out on Kobol though.

[Absynthes]

Originally Posted by Paradox3713

Honestly, Escorts are not BSG for one. And 2. I don't have the time to grind out the cubits or the money to pay to bring an Escort up to the same level of effectiveness as my Strike. It's common sense really...

Lets bring common sense into it, hey? You are commenting on the performance of two classes that you do not fly, and refuse to. Common sense should prevail here, and prevent you from making any more useless posts.

I kill multiple escorts in my line. I can kill escorts in my strike.

Now you've thrown enough insults at others about their join date to the forums, which does not reflect game join date. But for yours, you should have enough reserves stockpiled to build a basic escort. I'd be really interested to see how you go against avoidance strikes, let alone a semi-decent line pilot.

So either prepare to back up your information, or leave these topics alone.

Maybe your issue is you spend too much time on the forums, instead of piloting.

[GundamX]

[quote=Paradox3713;2752528]Okay another 'Line' pilot that claims that there is no issue. But where is your data on this. The data that we all have access to is available. Where is yours showing that the current data is false?


My data of line v escort is my experience flying a line and escort which you have none. There are many, many, many posts (too many to count) in the forums from line pilots and also from escort pilots that corroborate my data too. FACT: Lines have no problem killing escorts 1v1.

[Paradox3713]

Originally Posted by Absynthes

Lets bring common sense into it, hey? You are commenting on the performance of two classes that you do not fly, and refuse to. Common sense should prevail here, and prevent you from making any more useless posts.

I kill multiple escorts in my line. I can kill escorts in my strike.

If this is your argument, common sense also says that taking the word of an Escort driver that only after the past few months has gotten into a newly enhanced Interceptor Line doesn't make much sense either. After all anyone with half a brain knows that the Interceptor Lines are nothing less than the fast attack version of the Multi-role lines and as such are better than the Multi-role Line if you're into speed and avoidance use.

Now you've thrown enough insults at others about their join date to the forums, which does not reflect game join date. But for yours, you should have enough reserves stockpiled to build a basic escort. I'd be really interested to see how you go against avoidance strikes, let alone a semi-decent line pilot.

See the thing is Ocissor you apparently haven't been paying attention very well or someone has been filling your head full of fluff. One thing about me is I am not the aggressor. But I will return fire when fired upon and that's what any of the so called insults you are referring to reflect. Your band of Escort jockeys feel threatened and scared that something may happen to their current status in the food chain. The very food chain that dictated that Lines are supposed to master Escorts while Escorts master Strikes. Well we have one but the other is still lacking because of an error on the previous DEV team's part. So a correction needs to be made. It's not hard to understand as it is a fact with data to back it up.

So either prepare to back up your information, or leave these topics alone.

Again it has already has been proven. By data discovered by one group, and backed up by data the DEVs collected. Do you really think they just believed the data given without researching it themselves? C'mon man seriously? You are also aware that in the FAQ and Guides section there is a program with the data as well right? you can find it here -----> http://en.board.bigpoint.com/bsgo/sh...d.php?t=386928

If you are claiming that the data is incorrect how is it that the same number of accuracy points can be so effective against one ship class and not another? Are you one of those guys who is going to claim that the previous Line accuracy was too much and as such needed to be nerfed? If so when did you draw that conclusion because there is not one thread or post prior to August 2011 that called for Lines to be nerfed. NOT ONE POST. Are you afraid that someone in a Line with their accuracy returned is going to use accuracy ammo and avoidance debuff and start costing you in titanium repairs? Is that what your concern is?

So far as I have seen the only people who don't want Lines to get their accuracy back are Escort jockeys and Escort jockey's that fly Lines for farming purposes. But this thread has also shown Line pilots who want their accuracy back or who wouldn't mind having it back. Well since it wasn't supposed to be removed in the first place, fair is fair and they should get it back. It doesn't take me flying two or three other classes to know that.

It saddens me to see that you joined the less than honorable side, as you never needed help with anything even before The Great Nerf.

Maybe your issue is you spend too much time on the forums, instead of piloting.

Wow, a petty attack from you. I so would never have seen you lower yourself so. Well the fact is that I spent so much time piloting and observing and gathering vital battlefield intelligence that I used that time to figure out problems that plague this game. And as luck would have it I spotted this one and was able to get help proving it. Sorry if in doing so Escort's may take a hit but you do realize it is for the greater good? I mean seriously allowing Escorts to be nothing but giant Strikes that can attack Lines at will? That's just plain wrong. Escorts kill Strikes, Lines kill Escorts, and multiple Strikes kill Lines. I'm just trying to ensure that things stay balanced is all. I'm sure the real Line pilots appreciate the ability to really do their jobs more efficiently and effectively, wouldn't you agree?

Good talk though, I really understand and appreciate your concern on the subject.

Originally Posted by GundamX

My data of line v escort is my experience flying a line and escort which you have none. There are many, many, many posts (too many to count) in the forums from line pilots and also from escort pilots that corroborate my data too. FACT: Lines have no problem killing escorts 1v1.

Fact: There were other Line pilots, dedicated line pilots who stated that they should have their accuracy back. So why should we deny them? Like 50 - 75 points is going to hurt that much. It's not too much is it? Or are you Escort guys remembering how you were able to dominate Strikes after receiving 50 points of accuracy after the Great Nerf? Or is that the problem? You guys know that those points are going to HERT is that it? Get it? HERT, as in the accuracy ammo you guys get for free every day. HA HA HA HA HA! Man I crack myself up.

But hey if the change comes ADAPT! That's what you guys tell the Strike and Line pilots right?

[Rhiannon71]

Sorry Paradox but you seem to be mistaken about all the ships. There are Lines that I can kill and some I can not kill 1 v 1 in my escort. There are some strikes I can not kill either.

What you suggest leads to everyone basically playing line ships and line ships being able to kill everything no matter what.

There is one line on my server that no matter how much damage I put on him I can not keep up with his setup (which includes DC packs) because my energy runs out quickly and the hits he does manage to get on me eventually take their toll.

All ships are able to take down all other types depending on the individual setups. I love my escort and my line but what you claim is wrong (I like my strikes but don't fly them as often). Heck I have more problems with strikes in my line than I do with the escorts. There are so many variables to take into account in a fight that your comments seem to be off.

So please explain how my escort ship fits into what you claim when there are lines that i can shoot up all day and still never kill? The answer is as stated above...setup....setups make a huge difference for all ships.

FYI I would not oppose Lines getting back some of the accuracy either

[Absynthes]

Originally Posted by Paradox3713

If this is your argument, common sense also says that taking the word of an Escort driver that only after the past few months has gotten into a newly enhanced Interceptor Line doesn't make much sense either.

Still better than someone who hasn't piloted either. Can you say you have first hand battle experience in the escort vs. line scene?

Originally Posted by Paradox3713

After all anyone with half a brain knows that the Interceptor Lines are nothing less than the fast attack version of the Multi-role lines and as such are better than the Multi-role Line if you're into speed and avoidance use.

How can someone who doesn't pilot either compare anything?

Originally Posted by Paradox3713

See the thing is Ocissor you apparently haven't been paying attention very well or someone has been filling your head full of fluff. One thing about me is I am not the aggressor. But I will return fire when fired upon and that's what any of the so called insults you are referring to reflect.

I could fill this with quoted examples, but simply you are the one raising the bar when someone disagrees with you.

Originally Posted by Paradox3713

Your band of Escort jockeys feel threatened and scared that something may happen to their current status in the food chain. The very food chain that dictated that Lines are supposed to master Escorts while Escorts master Strikes. Well we have one but the other is still lacking because of an error on the previous DEV team's part. So a correction needs to be made. It's not hard to understand as it is a fact with data to back it up.

With all the recent threads you have started, it seem you are afraid for your strike, summarised;
*Increase line accuracy
*Decrease escort avoidance
*Decrease escort accuracy
*Increase strike speed
*Increase strike avoidance
*increase strike turn rate
*Increase strike acceleration

Did I miss any?

Originally Posted by Paradox3713

Again it has already has been proven. By data discovered by one group, and backed up by data the DEVs collected. Do you really think they just believed the data given without researching it themselves? C'mon man seriously? You are also aware that in the FAQ and Guides section there is a program with the data as well right? you can find it here -----> http://en.board.bigpoint.com/bsgo/sh...d.php?t=386928

Using that calculator, my escort vs a Gungir that hits hard a lot of the time, has my survivability at ~30s. Using my escort against some avoidance strikes you fly with, has 1 strikes survivability at ~30s.

After that the time goes up, as avoidance debuff isn't ready, escort power is low (which is an escorts biggest weakness).

Originally Posted by Paradox3713

If you are claiming that the data is incorrect how is it that the same number of accuracy points can be so effective against one ship class and not another? Are you one of those guys who is going to claim that the previous Line accuracy was too much and as such needed to be nerfed? If so when did you draw that conclusion because there is not one thread or post prior to August 2011 that called for Lines to be nerfed. NOT ONE POST. Are you afraid that someone in a Line with their accuracy returned is going to use accuracy ammo and avoidance debuff and start costing you in titanium repairs? Is that what your concern is?

It is defiantly a good "perfect world" analysis, however perfect world doesn't reflect combat. e.g. Magic knows how to minimise guns on him, weapons debuff etc. I have not claimed that anything about lines accuracy being too high, I am saying that the situations you describe are highly skilled escort pilots defeating new line pilots.

Originally Posted by Paradox3713

So far as I have seen the only people who don't want Lines to get their accuracy back are Escort jockeys and Escort jockey's that fly Lines for farming purposes. But this thread has also shown Line pilots who want their accuracy back or who wouldn't mind having it back. Well since it wasn't supposed to be removed in the first place, fair is fair and they should get it back. It doesn't take me flying two or three other classes to know that.

It saddens me to see that you joined the less than honorable side, as you never needed help with anything even before The Great Nerf.

Maybe it is just me that is overpowered then?

Originally Posted by Paradox3713

Wow, a petty attack from you. I so would never have seen you lower yourself so. Well the fact is that I spent so much time piloting and observing and gathering vital battlefield intelligence that I used that time to figure out problems that plague this game. And as luck would have it I spotted this one and was able to get help proving it. Sorry if in doing so Escort's may take a hit but you do realize it is for the greater good? I mean seriously allowing Escorts to be nothing but giant Strikes that can attack Lines at will? That's just plain wrong. Escorts kill Strikes, Lines kill Escorts, and multiple Strikes kill Lines. I'm just trying to ensure that things stay balanced is all. I'm sure the real Line pilots appreciate the ability to really do their jobs more efficiently and effectively, wouldn't you agree?

Then why are you not reporting that RCS ducting is at fault?

Originally Posted by Paradox3713

Good talk though, I really understand and appreciate your concern on the subject.



Fact: There were other Line pilots, dedicated line pilots who stated that they should have their accuracy back. So why should we deny them? Like 50 - 75 points is going to hurt that much. It's not too much is it? Or are you Escort guys remembering how you were able to dominate Strikes after receiving 50 points of accuracy after the Great Nerf? Or is that the problem? You guys know that those points are going to HERT is that it? Get it? HERT, as in the accuracy ammo you guys get for free every day. HA HA HA HA HA! Man I crack myself up.

But hey if the change comes ADAPT! That's what you guys tell the Strike and Line pilots right?

I have adapted, I got a line.

Take a walk, take a breath, get a dog or something.

[scbypwr]

How many fantastic players coming into your threads pointing out your flaws will it take for you to drop it?

You have admitted that strikes are the only class you fly, why do you feel compelled to spread your ignorance about flying escorts and lines.

I have stated my reasons for flying escorts, a shift to line combat would only affect the enjoyment of the game not my effectiveness! The good pilots adapt...the others complain!


Please stop complaining about matters you know nothing about!

PS. All the bs equations that are out there are APPROXIMATIONS!!! The constants have never been published by the devs! Your paper math is wrong and in game experience is the only thing that is reliable. All of your Maths are plain guess work!

[Paradox3713]

Originally Posted by Rhiannon71

...snip

Sorry buddy I look at your join date and I say how would you even know how Lines were vs Escorts back then? If people weren't playing or even flying a Line against an Escort back back before then how would they know if it effected Lines at all.

How do I know? Watching Escorts go after lines without the slightest concern for themselves. And the reason being is that they can close the distance and end up on a Lines back faster than a line can get two hits on the Escort. Also if one gun is calculated as a hit that does not mean all guns will hit. So a Line could have 8-9 guns but only 3-4 will hit in a given volley. Before he Line knows it there is a big tick on his back.

Look it's human nature to go with the best option there is. That's why most run to Multi-Escorts and now others or those very same people mentioned before go to Interceptor Lines. It's just how it is. If there is no balance people will go after the advantage. You Escort jockey's shouldn't hate me so much just because I speak the truth. Hate the previous DEV teams for not putting the game together correctly in the first place.

[Zphyr]

Originally Posted by Paradox3713

How do I know? Watching Escorts go after lines without the slightest concern for themselves. And the reason being is that they can close the distance and end up on a Lines back faster than a line can get two hits on the Escort. Also if one gun is calculated as a hit that does not mean all guns will hit. So a Line could have 8-9 guns but only 3-4 will hit in a given volley. Before he Line knows it there is a big tick on his back.

Now, you are assuming that it's a semi-skilled escort pilot versus a liner that barely know what they are doing (standing still). It's not that easy staying inside the blind spot of a liner that keep moving around, for the entire fight. Of course it depends on the ship... but assuming "average" here, and all 1vs1.

Under normal situations, an escort can't close the gap and "sit" on the blind spot of a moving liner who is aware of its presence and only take a couple hits - could be an avoidance escort but those are pretty slow. A couple hits means about 300 hp. That's about 1/10 of an advanced escort's HP... and sometimes it's losing half the HP just to get to optimal. 4 hits per volley and the escort is dead without being able to do much damage... even an average liner would do quite a significant damage even before they engage, and a good liner will melt a good escort in under a minute. To top that, the escort may not even be able to turn around mid attack and run away (tested that).

Lines do dominate over escorts, just as escorts dominate over strikes. It simply depends on the level of both equipments and of skills, including knowing how to build the ship and how to use it well.

Also, "seeing this and that" holds less significance than actually "done this and that, and felt it in my bones".

[CraigLowes]

Originally Posted by Paradox3713

Piffle about start dates, general ignorance and assumption that the people arguing against the changes are all escort driving haters

It's so nice to see that the OP has bothered to gather real experience data, I flew out with a friend who has a few different colonial lines and builds with varying levels of equipment from lvl 7 upwards. I used my invincible game breaking liche with mostly lvl 8 gear. We spend a happy few hours challenging each other using various standard builds I won't bore you all with, as you will either have tried them or don't own a ship to confirm with. Speed, avoidance and balanced.

Conclusion, I lost almost every engagement head to head apart from when I was up again the command. When I used my head and took it serously I won a few more but still mostly lost. Wasted a fair bit of titanium between us to come to the conclusion that all was well and lines could do their job against escorts.

Right, now to stand by to find out I'm wrong because, because, because, it the wonderful wizard of fail...