Fixing the Blindspots

[FBI_Spy]

As you all know, overall, Cylon ships have better arcs and blindspots than colonial ones. This thread is aimed at balancing them out atleast to some extent. Hopefully BP_Lori and the others will notice this.

Frankly speaking, though, this really should be classified as a big bug fix rather than an idea b/c it should have been taken care of during Beta.


Escorts
Compare:
http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/7038/cylescrt.png
http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/9580/colescrt.png


Suggestions:
Banshee/Scythe - No nerf (for now)

Spectre/Glaive - Unsure (Glaive has smaller rear blindspot but Spetre has better front gun positioning)

Wraith/Maul - Needs some form of a nerf, b/c its useless b/c of its huge blindspots (the Maul has the biggest issues). Not sure what would work though...

Liche/Halberd - Halberd needs all weapons closer to center of the ship, b/c the Liche has not only smaller blindspots but better front gun positioning


None of these should need to have (major) cosmetic look changes, just some moving on the gun placements




Lines (the main issue)
Compare:
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5809/collinessr.jpg
http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/7007/cyllines.png



Suggestions:
Nidhogg/Gungir - Front guns on Gungir should be move back alittle bit, rear blind spot on Nidhogg should be much bigger. Other nerfs may be required

Hel/Vanir - Vanir's blindspot should be reduced to Hel one, further nerfs may be required (such as with the Hel's huge blindspot on the top front of the ship)

Jormung/Jotunn - side guns on Jormung should be further out (perhaps doing something similar to what the wraith has) and the Jotunn should have them closer in.

Fenrir/Aesir - Side guns on Fenrir should be further out (again, perhaps doing something like the extension on the Wraith) and the Aesir should have them closer in.


The Jormung and Fenrir will need cosmetic changes for sure, the others can be fixed with just moving gun placements.





Images courtesy of Canuck's (Archieved) Blindspot thread

[Toaster-Bait]

Don't you go messing with my Jormung!

I like my giant slab of iron with engines tied to it just the way it is!

*cuddles flying iron block*

Diligence, level 27 War Raider, Liche, Jormung

[jellyb]

So, no changes to the ships where the colonials are better.

Gee, I wonder which side you play on.

[ZER0COOL]

That's because there are no occasions where colonial ships are better in terms of blind spots

[swhitehead]

It really should be about skill and gun levels verses i can set in your blind spot and kill you. We need some sort of defense weapons for the liners away from the normal weapon slots. Lets face it humans and machines can figure out that if they have been killed by a blind spot than fix the blind spot.

[Firedshot]

From my experiance. If you fly a gungnir and some one manages to sit in your blind spot your flying it wrong. As for the asier it can be a struggle you have to ram everything and slow down speed up alot. Fenrir again if some thing is in your blind spot your doing some thing wrong. Asier and fenrir could do with a lillte balancing.

[AltEgo]

God I love munching on this can of worms.

@swhitehead -- while your logic may be sound in RL, this is a game. Without the blindspot the game goes from rock/paper/scissors to I got the biggest ship I WIN :) Everyone has to fly a lvl 10 decked out line and whoever has the most cubits to spend on ammo is the winner.

If this supposed bug must be fixed, then increase the blindspots on the ships with negligible blindspots, like the scythe/glaive/liche for example. Seems to fit the definition of fairness most of these threads are going for.

Every ship has it's advantages and disadvantages. All ships have this interesting thing called equipment slots that can be adapted to maximize strengths or minimize weaknesses. Asking the devs to toy with anything is dangerous and you may hate the new way more than the old way. Your setup could go from nearly perfect to junk with just a bit of tweaked code.

While I am not entirely unsympathetic to the col line captain's plight, to be blunt, few of them take the effort to equip their ship to deal with blindspotters and even fewer still pay enough attention or fly well enough to have a chance against a decent strike. There are at least 3 sure fire methods I've seen used against my strike by lines that work 89-99% of the time and a couple more that can certainly ruin my day or cost me a kill. But most lines seem to prefer to moan than think about all the ways they could turn the table and ruin the strikes day instead of being roasted on the 5 gun spit.

[-HarleyQuinn-1]

That's because there are no occasions where colonial ships are better in terms of blind spots

Scythe....

[Inflammatory]

Perhaps he's talking about making the blindspots equitable. Or maybe put a slot dedicated to a pdc behind the bigger ships. It won't take out a strike or escort, but it'll make them think twice about parking there. Or better yet, put a single weapon slot back there because my line guns can't seem to hit a strike, pvp or npc, except for once every four or five volleys.

I do agree though that there is an issue. I, like many in this game, play both sides albeit on different servers. In my colonial account last week, I was parked on top of a pvp Jorm in my strike. I mean I was dead in the center of what should've been a narrow blindspot and he wasn't really moving. imagine my surprise when his left side guns fired on me. That's beyond a 180 degree arc. But comparing the two sides, it's easier to exploit Colonial blindspots than Cylon ones.

I wouldn't advocate making Cylon ship blindspots bigger, but at least bring the Colonial ships in line with the Cylon ships. And to quell any more talk of the Liche's blindspots, they are indeed there as I've had more than one Colonial Viper exploit it, hats off to them!!! :-)

The people that complain the most are the ones that lose a lot. And, um, well I lose a lot too but I try to keep laughing since the game is supposed to be relaxing, not stressful. But we've all seen it, those that win don't want changes, and those that lose want changes that would enable them to win. It's one of those issues that I feel will never be settled because it's impossible to please everyone. In the meantime, just try to have some fun.

[ZER0COOL]

God I love munching on this can of worms.

@swhitehead -- while your logic may be sound in RL, this is a game. Without the blindspot the game goes from rock/paper/scissors to I got the biggest ship I WIN :) Everyone has to fly a lvl 10 decked out line and whoever has the most cubits to spend on ammo is the winner.

If this supposed bug must be fixed, then increase the blindspots on the ships with negligible blindspots, like the scythe/glaive/liche for example. Seems to fit the definition of fairness most of these threads are going for.

Every ship has it's advantages and disadvantages. All ships have this interesting thing called equipment slots that can be adapted to maximize strengths or minimize weaknesses. Asking the devs to toy with anything is dangerous and you may hate the new way more than the old way. Your setup could go from nearly perfect to junk with just a bit of tweaked code.

While I am not entirely unsympathetic to the col line captain's plight, to be blunt, few of them take the effort to equip their ship to deal with blindspotters and even fewer still pay enough attention or fly well enough to have a chance against a decent strike. There are at least 3 sure fire methods I've seen used against my strike by lines that work 89-99% of the time and a couple more that can certainly ruin my day or cost me a kill. But most lines seem to prefer to moan than think about all the ways they could turn the table and ruin the strikes day instead of being roasted on the 5 gun spit.


My question is why should we have to pack extra equipment to prevent blind spotters and break even with our Cylon counterparts.

What's wrong with a bit of equality?

Or where our the Colonial advantages to counter our massive blind spots?

The answer is there aren't any, BP Lori has already admitted it was an unintended design error

[-HarleyQuinn-1]

Use SLIDE. Stop putting the blame completely on the blindspot. Train your Piloting skills.

Nidhogg's arse is as big as the Jotunn, and the 2 weapons on tip don't change anything for my life as long as they have 125 accuracy.

Do i blame the blindspot? I don't. I use slide and there's no blindspot.

[NightFire666]

Use SLIDE. Stop putting the blame completely on the blindspot. Train your Piloting skills.

Nidhogg's arse is as big as the Jotunn, and the 2 weapons on tip don't change anything for my life as long as they have 125 accuracy.

Do i blame the blindspot? I don't. I use slide and there's no blindspot.

I kinda giggled at this. Reason being. My strike can stay in the blindspot of a Nid even with that idiotic slide BS.

To fix the Maul's Blindspot, they would have to make the front turrets 360. There you go. Easy fix is easy.

[-HarleyQuinn-1]

Well there ARE complete failures where even 100 hullplates wouldnt be able to save, but the easiest fix for the Blindspot is SLIDING. Not crying all over forums.

[AltEgo]

My question is why should we have to pack extra equipment to prevent blind spotters and break even with our Cylon counterparts.

What's wrong with a bit of equality?

Or where our the Colonial advantages to counter our massive blind spots?

The answer is there aren't any, BP Lori has already admitted it was an unintended design error

Loadout is player's choice. Equip to fight one enemy, die to another. There is no perfect setup. Take the speed escort for example. It can chase down other escorts, keep a fleeing strike in range long enough to kill it, rush into a lines blindspot, BUT it has no ductings to help against high powered escorts, no turning to help vs strikes. EVERYTHING is a trade off.

Setup is important but not the end all be all, tactics come into it as well. The stereotypical response of a line captain vs a strike just means a slow painful death of his own making. Eventually they learn to stop whining on the forums and deal more effectively with their dreaded nemesis the stike, but till then they are lambs to the slaughter and I feel no pity for them.

Ship selection comes into it too. Want an escort with NO blindspot get a scythe/liche/glaive. Lines have it a bit tougher, but gyros, slide, computer selection, and tactics CAN defeat enemies that the blindspot moaners would have you believe are UNBEATABLE.

Nothing wrong with a bit of equality, but that is not what most of the opponents of blindspots want. They want an I WIN BUTTON built into their uber expensive line that can already kill 80% of targets, but whoa is me when they have trouble with the other 20%. Fairness to them has little to do with equality.

Colonial advantages. Aside from sheer numbers :) Each ship type has pluses and minuses. While I can see the complaint that all 4 col lines have bigger blindspots than cylon lines, if there is a fix, it should be to make the cylon line blinds larger, not eliminate them altogether.

Lines have range/HP for days, it is up to them to use that edge wisely (i.e. pay attention)
Escorts have decent range/HP/speed, again need to see the enemy coming to utilize to fullest
Strikes have speed/dps. If you let a strike get inside optimal before you notice him while you are solo, it's your own fault for getting popped, not a design flaw in your ship. (Proper ship setup can dig some lines/escorts out of this hole, but it's a tough hole to dig out of)

The blindspots were never a design error. The glaring difference between cylon/col lines was an unintended consequence born from the aesthetic layouts of ships. Is it a bit much, maybe, but again, that is not why the lines cry. They cry because they can not stomp all before them. The imbalance between the factions is just a convenient crutch to bolster their arguments.

[-HarleyQuinn-1]

The 'crying' lines cry because with a damned 125 accuracy, they cannot shoot anything down. At all.

Takes me DOUBLE amount of Volleys of Cannonshots to takedown a Halberd than an Aesir; Where the Halberd should be my 'Prey' on default; Where it can constantly damage me with 50 damage with KEWs while hovering around me like a walk in the park, while i miss all shots on him because of his default Avoidance and my suckarse Accuracy. You think this is normal? OH OF COURSE YOU ALL DO. Change the subject, change the subject and supress it with 'You're crying' trollfest nao!!

P.S. Blindspot is just a stupid excuse for the people who dont/cant use slide; The Accuracy problem is the REAL problem here.

[reaperfang154]

nid has interesting blindspot because of the "inner guns"

[FBI_Spy]

Perhaps he's talking about making the blindspots equitable.
Finally! The differences in blindspot sizes are rediculous.


Also, you pp ignore the fact that the Banshee has its forward gun placements close to the center of the ship whereas the Scythe has one there and the other in the far front. The Banshee can win if it turns hard enough as a result. To counterbalance this, the Scythe has a very well positioned forward gun.

The scythes side guns perhaps could be a tad farther out to balance things out but other than that I do not see any nerfing required.


@ Harley, slide is crap if you fly Maul. I dare you to try making it work consistently against other equal level escorts and strikes, b/c I know you can't. Once the strikes get on you, your screwed. And slide definately isn't going to save you from a strike or smart escort/line if your a Jotunn, Hel, Vanir, or Maul.





NOTICE TO ALL: I play as BOTH a Cylon and a Colonial, on separate servers. I'm posting this b/c I want a fight to not be decided by huge blindspot imbalances, but not in a way that makes them complete "carbon copies"

[NightFire666]

Finally! The differences in blindspot sizes are rediculous.


Also, you pp ignore the fact that the Banshee has its forward gun placements close to the center of the ship whereas the Scythe has one there and the other in the far front. The Banshee can win if it turns hard enough as a result. To counterbalance this, the Scythe has a very well positioned forward gun.

The scythes side guns perhaps could be a tad farther out to balance things out but other than that I do not see any nerfing required.


@ Harley, slide is crap if you fly Maul. I dare you to try making it work consistently against other equal level escorts and strikes, b/c I know you can't. Once the strikes get on you, your screwed. And slide definately isn't going to save you from a strike or smart escort/line if your a Jotunn, Hel, Vanir, or Maul.





NOTICE TO ALL: I play as BOTH a Cylon and a Colonial, on separate servers. I'm posting this b/c I want a fight to not be decided by huge blindspot imbalances, but not in a way that makes them complete "carbon copies"

The Mine Launcher denies use of blindspot for maul. It's basically a giant frak you too all those noobie strikers that just sit on the blind spots.

[FBI_Spy]

The Mine Launcher denies use of blindspot for maul. It's basically a giant frak you too all those noobie strikers that just sit on the blind spots.
If they are stupid enough to hide in behind the engines yes that'll work, but if they are smart and hide on top/infront of the engines it will serve you no good.

Plus, that means you have alot less health which means the build is overkill to another escort.

[rayzilla]

When the OP listed out the blindspots, it almost seemed that they were balanced, just not from subclass to subclass - i.e. while the assault subclass for one side had a much bigger blindspot than it's twin on the other side, the interceptors flipped the inequity. So, each side has half with huge blindspots, they just don't match across subclasses.

Further, with all the problems that the game has over faction balance, I truly do not see a problem if the Cylon ships have somewhat better firing arcs than the Colonials. They do not have a numbers edge, so, give them a technological edge, they're frakking robots after all!

I do not believe that the ships of the two factions should be 100% equal. It makes no logical sense. We all know that this would never be the case were the game "real" and, I don't think it was the case in the show. One of those "other" Sci Fi games gives their different factions distinct advantages and disadvantage that balance against each other making the sides pretty much equal but not exact twins of each other. For instance, say that the Cylon ships have better avoidance but the Colonials have better armor. Cylon weapons are more accurate but Colonial ships hit harder and so on.

[FallingWhale]

The maul is a smaller ship. It's blindspot is smaller, so you're argueing to make the wraith worse.

[St3v3f26]

Liche/Halberd - Halberd needs all weapons closer to center of the ship, b/c the Liche has not only smaller blindspots but better front gun positioning

It is the Liche which has to be changed. The Halberd is a powerful ship, the Liche however is unbeatable in the right hands. The Liche front guns need to be placed way further ahead.

[ZER0COOL]

Use SLIDE. Stop putting the blame completely on the blindspot. Train your Piloting skills.

Nidhogg's arse is as big as the Jotunn, and the 2 weapons on tip don't change anything for my life as long as they have 125 accuracy.

Do i blame the blindspot? I don't. I use slide and there's no blindspot.

Your either being deliberately annoying, or very defensive.

As I said before YES you can add equiptment to counter players sitting in your blindspot, 100% agreed.

BUT why should we have to when Cylon lines don't as they have tiny blindspot?

Its like starting a running race, but only 10 steps back from your opponent, sure you can buy fancy spiked trainers, but nothing takes away from the fact you are starting 10 steps back.

I see that the main opposition comes from Cylon pilots, I think you guys simply don't want to give up your advantage.

I personally am not crying for an I win button, I would like a "I want to be equal with my Cylon countership" button, thats all, nothing more nothing less.

[Fotns]

I dont find any of the blindspots annoying or unfair


Colonials have the Scythe and Glaive for tiny blind spots (2 escorts)

Cylons have Liche and Banshee for tiny blind spots (2 escorts)

seems kind of balanced to me, and don't go saying the Adv liche's extra gun makes it stronger as it cant be used if you are behind it :D


as for the liners blind spot......

Its a big ship, big ships have more places to hide (Millenium Falcon hiding on star destroyer anyone?)


I am a colonial pilot by the way and I counter the blind spot by using team work.

surely there are bigger problems to fix on this game than where a ship can or can not fire, Balance and servers running without lag would be my priority and firing arcs would be near the bottom

[Scoustar]

OK, so you don't like that you lack the necessary piloting skills to kill off strikes in your line. Welcome to BSGO. Strike beats line.

Am I right in assuming that a guy who spent most of his young BSGO life camping the blindspots on platforms is now complaining about the blindspots on the ships that the aforementioned blindspots allowed him to afford?

That confuses me :confused:

I'm not a slide user but I am a line pilot (slowly becoming a strike pilot; needed a change BugPoint simply won't bother to provide) who knows simply that running away in your line will get you killed against any half decent strike pilot.

Don't blame BugPoint for your lack of skill. Get better, and don't give them an excuse not to produce new content.

[St3v3f26]

No it is not balanced. The Scythe and Glaive are very specialised ships. The Liche is a universal one, which is why the Halberd and Liche are the most used escorts. The Liche's advantage is so huge that the small advantages the specialised ships may have are far from making up for the liche.

[Cadoogan]

The Blind-spot on a liche I like to call the G-spot, because I'm frakked if I can find it... :(

Joking aside, I like these sentiments from Inflammatory:-


"The people that complain the most are the ones that lose a lot. And, um, well I lose a lot too but I try to keep laughing since the game is supposed to be relaxing, not stressful. But we've all seen it, those that win don't want changes, and those that lose want changes that would enable them to win. It's one of those issues that I feel will never be settled because it's impossible to please everyone. In the meantime, just try to have some fun."

[ZER0COOL]

The Blind-spot on a liche I like to call the G-spot, because I'm frakked if I can find it... :(

Joking aside, I like these sentiments from Inflammatory:-


"The people that complain the most are the ones that lose a lot. And, um, well I lose a lot too but I try to keep laughing since the game is supposed to be relaxing, not stressful. But we've all seen it, those that win don't want changes, and those that lose want changes that would enable them to win. It's one of those issues that I feel will never be settled because it's impossible to please everyone. In the meantime, just try to have some fun."

I don't want an "I win" button, just a level playing field to start from. Anything after that is down to personal choice and skill.

[Charlie81]

Alright, lets see...

Scythe vs Banshee: On come on. The banshee will lose out, at an equal level of skill, and no additional gear whatsoever. Perfect equality, and the Banshee loses out. Same case as if the scythe and banshee were used to fight a strike.

Glaive vs Spectre: This is hard to decide. Escort v escort, just depends on who gets the better attack vector here (ie. who gets to jam their nose up the tailpipes of their opponent first). Escort v strike... Glaive will win, hands down.

Maul vs Wraith: Escort v escort, these 2 are basically tied. same huge gun spread, same huge arc of turn to get guns on target. The gun positioning won't affect this too much, trust me. I've flown both.

Halberd v Liche: Escort v escort, The Liche will win, at least in a turning match. Escort v strike, it takes considerably less skill to kill a Hal than a Liche. Here is pretty much the only case the Cylons win.

Jotunn vs Jormung: Both flying bricks, both just as easy to kill. If anything, they have approximately the same blindspot. Both have a single cannon on both sides that is able to shoot backwards at anything not sitting directly in the engine block. The other cannons still won't shoot unless yous tray way too far from the engines, or the topside/lower decks.

Vanir vs Hel: Oh, don't even get me started on these 2. Terrible blinds on both of them, both are ridiculously easy to frag. Especially if they decide to move when you're shooting them.

Aesir vs Fenrir: Alright, this one goes to the Cylons. The Aesir, being much flatter than it's counterpart, will have a lot more trouble to kill a blindspotter than the Fenrir will. Not that it's easy to do so by any means. Especially when said blindspotter uses avoidance (-cough- mostofserver -cough-)

Gungnir vs Nidhogg: Seriously, if you think the Nid has it easy... think again. One gun firing at a target sitting behind it, vs the full broadside any experienced Gungnir pilot will have no problems bring to bear on a target behind them? Please. The only thing a Nidhogg is better at is a full frontal assault. Just trust me on that, I had a better time against nidhoggs because of the wide rear gun positioning than the gungnir, which has a (relatively) narrow corridor where I can sit.

So, unless you wanna turn this into a gun placement/accuracy discussion... I'm sorry. Blindspots aren't any worse towards the Colonials than the Cylons in 3/4 cases. In several of them, the Colonials actually win out.

Please... at least TRY to fly both sides before going on a giant rant about how one side is OP.

[Charlie81]

I don't want an "I win" button, just a level playing field to start from. Anything after that is down to personal choice and skill.

Again, better gun positioning, sure. Blindspots? Read my post above.

[ZER0COOL]

Alright, lets see...

Scythe vs Banshee: On come on. The banshee will lose out, at an equal level of skill, and no additional gear whatsoever. Perfect equality, and the Banshee loses out. Same case as if the scythe and banshee were used to fight a strike.

Glaive vs Spectre: This is hard to decide. Escort v escort, just depends on who gets the better attack vector here (ie. who gets to jam their nose up the tailpipes of their opponent first). Escort v strike... Glaive will win, hands down.

Maul vs Wraith: Escort v escort, these 2 are basically tied. same huge gun spread, same huge arc of turn to get guns on target. The gun positioning won't affect this too much, trust me. I've flown both.

Halberd v Liche: Escort v escort, The Liche will win, at least in a turning match. Escort v strike, it takes considerably less skill to kill a Hal than a Liche. Here is pretty much the only case the Cylons win.

Jotunn vs Jormung: Both flying bricks, both just as easy to kill. If anything, they have approximately the same blindspot. Both have a single cannon on both sides that is able to shoot backwards at anything not sitting directly in the engine block. The other cannons still won't shoot unless yous tray way too far from the engines, or the topside/lower decks.

Vanir vs Hel: Oh, don't even get me started on these 2. Terrible blinds on both of them, both are ridiculously easy to frag. Especially if they decide to move when you're shooting them.

Aesir vs Fenrir: Alright, this one goes to the Cylons. The Aesir, being much flatter than it's counterpart, will have a lot more trouble to kill a blindspotter than the Fenrir will. Not that it's easy to do so by any means. Especially when said blindspotter uses avoidance (-cough- mostofserver -cough-)

Gungnir vs Nidhogg: Seriously, if you think the Nid has it easy... think again. One gun firing at a target sitting behind it, vs the full broadside any experienced Gungnir pilot will have no problems bring to bear on a target behind them? Please. The only thing a Nidhogg is better at is a full frontal assault. Just trust me on that, I had a better time against nidhoggs because of the wide rear gun positioning than the gungnir, which has a (relatively) narrow corridor where I can sit.

So, unless you wanna turn this into a gun placement/accuracy discussion... I'm sorry. Blindspots aren't any worse towards the Colonials than the Cylons in 3/4 cases. In several of them, the Colonials actually win out.

Please... at least TRY to fly both sides before going on a giant rant about how one side is OP.

Hi, hope you enjoyed my water mine last night!!! (although while you were busy with that one, we drained 2 more in Delta uninterupted!)

Regards the Nid vs Gun, when is the last time you ever saw a line blindspotting another line, ever? I have never seen it before!

My issue is that the Guns rear blindspot is so vast a that 95% of the Cylon ships can fit in it, and easily stay there with basic manvourering without taking a single hit.

The nid however is a different story, a mere slight turn in any direction puts at least 2 guns on target, and for the average attacking pilot staying there is nearly impossible, unlike the Gungnir.

Sure there are a few "hardcore" players that have learnt to stay in the blindspot all day long, but for the more causual player, the difference between blindspot on ships which are supposed to be comparibale is vast.

[Charlie81]

Heh, we had 3 adv halberds plus an assortment of other colonials come in to drive us out a while after you left. Ah well.

As for your problem with the rear blindspot... it's not the real that gets you, it's the topside. Lets take Jester's diving on you in Altaar last night as an example. Gungnirs have tremendous trouble hitting anything that sits on top and inline of their gun turrets along the side. Any that try to follow behind will have a lot of trouble staying there, because the turn rate on a Gungnir almost matches an Aesir, it's got some decent speed, and it can turn fast enough to get guns on target behind, as well as in front.

Try sitting behind a nid, with the forward guns jammed into the engines with a Nid, and they'll be hitting you with 1 gun, max, as opposed to 3. Try sit on top of a nid, however... that's it's entire weapon arsenal trained on you at once.

You see where I'm getting at? Slightly different tactics, same if not better results for one. What's harder, sitting on top, or behind a target going at 60 or higher?

We most definitely do not have it that much easier, not with liners, and CERTAINLY not with escorts.

[St3v3f26]

Jotunn vs Jormung: Both flying bricks, both just as easy to kill. If anything, they have approximately the same blindspot. Both have a single cannon on both sides that is able to shoot backwards at anything not sitting directly in the engine block. The other cannons still won't shoot unless yous tray way too far from the engines, or the topside/lower decks.
You may want to look at the pictures in the OP again. Jotunn's blindspot is 2-3 times as wide as the Jormung's
The Jormung also has 2 guns closer to the center while the Jotunn has only 1, the other 2 placed even further away. That is also true for Aesir vs. Fenrir.

Vanir vs Hel: Oh, don't even get me started on these 2. Terrible blinds on both of them, both are ridiculously easy to frag. Especially if they decide to move when you're shooting them.
Again. While the Hel has a terrible blindspot for sure, it is still just half the width of the Vanir's

Gungnir vs Nidhogg: Seriously, if you think the Nid has it easy... think again. One gun firing at a target sitting behind it, vs the full broadside any experienced Gungnir pilot will have no problems bring to bear on a target behind them? Please. The only thing a Nidhogg is better at is a full frontal assault. Just trust me on that, I had a better time against nidhoggs because of the wide rear gun positioning than the gungnir, which has a (relatively) narrow corridor where I can sit.
A single gun is enough for a strike not to slow down because of the avoidance drop, so definitely an advantage for the Nidhogg.
And don't get me started on the immense brick-shaped size of the Nidhogg, which makes close quarter maneuvering as good as impossible.
Especially when it is sliding, there is no place for a strike to wait in a blindspot until the slide runs out, let alone shoot at the nid with less than 4 guns shooting back (max 3 for the Gungnir, although 0 is possible too). Huge advantage for the Nid, at least against strikes.


Another thing you didn't mention is that all cylon liners (except for the Hel) are built taller while the Colonial's are fatter. Aside from being the main reason for the difference in blindspot sizes with Cylons in advantage, it also makes it harder for strikes in general. Due to the small firing arc, a strike can not sit immediately above the targeting point but has to be further behind to have the targeting point in the arc. Therefore the turning speed of the blindspot beneath the strike is faster, requiring more steering for the colonial strike than it's cylon counterpart.
Blindspots aren't any worse towards the Colonials than the Cylons in 3/4 cases. In several of them, the Colonials actually win out.

Please... at least TRY to fly both sides before going on a giant rant about how one side is OP.
Disagreed. And I did fight enough colonial ships in a duel to know what I am talking about.

[Cadoogan]

I don't want an "I win" button, just a level playing field to start from. Anything after that is down to personal choice and skill.

Be careful what you wish for, the devs of an MMO I no longer play became almost obsessive about meeting demands for a 'level playing field' , introducing class homogenization in the name of creating 'balance'.

The net result was pvp became stale/boring/predictable as everything cancelled everything out.

[St3v3f26]

Be careful what you wish for, the devs of an MMO I no longer play became almost obsessive about meeting demands for a 'level playing field' , introducing class homogenization in the name of creating 'balance'.

The net result was pvp became stale/boring/predictable as everything cancelled everything out.

The issue at hand is that we do have the balance when looking at the ship's stats, but a design clearly in favor of the cylons.
So perhaps give the colonial ships better base stats to compensate?

[Charlie81]

You may want to look at the pictures in the OP again. Jotunn's blindspot is 2-3 times as wide as the Jormung's
The Jormung also has 2 guns closer to the center while the Jotunn has only 1, the other 2 placed even further away. That is also true for Aesir vs. Fenrir.

The Fenrir and Aesir I'd already explained. Not an argument point. As for the Jotunn vs Jormung; yeah, nvm. The Jotunn would definitely have a harder time.


Again. While the Hel has a terrible blindspot for sure, it is still just half the width of the Vanir's

Sure, but the Vanir pilot can bump his opponent til he loses control and moves into a gun arc. Good luck doing that in a Hel.

In the end, same results. Hels and Vanirs still die easily. Not much in terms of contest here.


A single gun is enough for a strike not to slow down because of the avoidance drop, so definitely an advantage for the Nidhogg.
And don't get me started on the immense brick-shaped size of the Nidhogg, which makes close quarter maneuvering as good as impossible.
Especially when it is sliding, there is no place for a strike to wait in a blindspot until the slide runs out, let alone shoot at the nid with less than 4 guns shooting back (max 3 for the Gungnir, although 0 is possible too). Huge advantage for the Nid, at least against strikes.

Bear in mind, I'm doing this comparision with no engine gear, no computers, no hull, only guns. When sliding, any blindspot pretty much disappears. In a standard strike sitting behind target scenario, a Nid will actually get less cannons on target than a Gungnir will.


Another thing you didn't mention is that all cylon liners (except for the Hel) are built taller while the Colonial's are fatter. Aside from being the main reason for the difference in blindspot sizes with Cylons in advantage, it also makes it harder for strikes in general. Due to the small firing arc, a strike can not sit immediately above the targeting point but has to be further behind to have the targeting point in the arc. Therefore the turning speed of the blindspot beneath the strike is faster, requiring more steering for the colonial strike than it's cylon counterpart.

I already said in my original post: Fenrirs have it easier than the Aesir because the Aesir is flatter. Acknowledged that design problem already.

Disagreed. And I did fight enough colonial ships in a duel to know what I am talking about.

I gave my examples. The liners on both sides suffer from blindspots, the colonials slightly more so. Honestly though, the difference isn't nearly as large as people would make out.The Cylons win out with the Jormung and the Fenrir. The Vanir has a VERY slight advantage over the Hel. The Gungnir vs Nidhogg, the Gung would have a better time with blindspotters towards the rear. Alright, so Cylons win out 3/8 times.

Now, redesign the banshee, wraith, and the spectre, give them smaller blindspots along the top and back, and that underslung gun emplacement on the scythe for the banshee, fill in that stupid gap on the side of the Hel so Hel pilots can bump and shake strikes out of blinds, and I'd gladly see a redesign to the Liche, Fenrir and Jormung to incorporate larger blinds.

[andy_wxm]

We could go on and on but lets not,,,, Devs fix the Halberd please. :)

[jellyb]

That's because there are no occasions where colonial ships are better in terms of blind spots


Sigh... oh clueless one. The OP even lists them in his post.

[ZER0COOL]

Sigh... oh clueless one. The OP even lists them in his post.

Trying to troll a user rather than add soemthing to the debate, how droll, [yawns]

[St3v3f26]

We could go on and on but lets not,,,, Devs fix the Halberd please. :)

There is little wrong with the halberd. It's more the Liche which is op.

The Fenrir and Aesir I'd already explained. Not an argument point. As for the Jotunn vs Jormung; yeah, nvm. The Jotunn would definitely have a harder time.
I did not question anything you said about the interceptors. Merely pointed out that the inner / outer side gun issue of the assaults applies to the interceptors as well.
Although I must admit I am not so sure about that. Maybe the Aesir has 2 inner side guns as well, like the Fenrir. Still, I am completely with you concerning the interceptors.

Bear in mind, I'm doing this comparision with no engine gear, no computers, no hull, only guns. When sliding, any blindspot pretty much disappears. In a standard strike sitting behind target scenario, a Nid will actually get less cannons on target than a Gungnir will.
I doubt that is true for any experienced Strike. It is absolutely possible to kill a Gungnir (without slide) without getting shot at, once the strike is in the blindspot. Not so against a Nidhogg. And if it does have a slide, it is no problem to match the speed on its top, waiting until the slide runs out. Again, not so against a Nidhogg.

I already said in my original post: Fenrirs have it easier than the Aesir because the Aesir is flatter. Acknowledged that design problem already.
And I just pointed out why that is an additional disadvantage for colonial strikes. Again, I did not question anything what you said about the interceptors.

Alright, so Cylons win out 3/8 times.

3/8? Lets see:
Scythe > Banshee
Maul = Wraith
Glaive = Spectre (While the Glaive has the smaller blindspot to the rear, i would rather fight a sliding / sitting Glaive than a sliding / sitting Spectre)
Halberd < Liche
Aesir < Fenrir
Jotunn < Jormung
Vanir = Hel
Gungnir < Nidhogg

So Colonials have the advantage in 1 ship, Cylons have advantage in 4 ships and 3 ships are even.

And I would like to point out that the 4 ships the Cylons have the advantage in are about 80% of all the used escorts and liners and they make up almost all high level escorts and liners.

[FBI_Spy]

Guys, just a note, keep this civil please. I don't want the argumentation on this issue to be cut-off b/c of too many foulmouths.



Further, with all the problems that the game has over faction balance, I truly do not see a problem if the Cylon ships have somewhat better firing arcs than the Colonials. They do not have a numbers edge, so, give them a technological edge, they're frakking robots after all!
Dude, come try to survive on Kobol. Its a hellhole b/c the ship unbalance is magnified. Scythes r the only good colonial ship and a Liche can beat them... We're screwed no matter how you slice the cake on Kobol...
The maul is a smaller ship. It's blindspot is smaller, so you're argueing to make the wraith worse.
Try flying a Wraith, then try a Maul. An intelligent Wraith can kill most any equal level strike, whereas the Maul gets its butt whipped. Why? B/c the Wraith has gun positions that allow it to slide to counterbalance its blindspots whereas on the Maul the strike would just get dragged along with you.
It is the Liche which has to be changed. The Halberd is a powerful ship, the Liche however is unbeatable in the right hands. The Liche front guns need to be placed way further ahead.
Maybe not all the way in front but yes I agree.
I personally am not crying for an I win button, I would like a "I want to be equal with my Cylon countership" button, thats all, nothing more nothing less.
Precisely the point, balanced ships can make a world of a difference when it comes to faction balance.
I dont find any of the blindspots annoying or unfair


Colonials have the Scythe and Glaive for tiny blind spots (2 escorts)

Cylons have Liche and Banshee for tiny blind spots (2 escorts)

seems kind of balanced to me, and don't go saying the Adv liche's extra gun makes it stronger as it cant be used if you are behind it :D


as for the liners blind spot......

Its a big ship, big ships have more places to hide (Millenium Falcon hiding on star destroyer anyone?)


I am a colonial pilot by the way and I counter the blind spot by using team work.

surely there are bigger problems to fix on this game than where a ship can or can not fire, Balance and servers running without lag would be my priority and firing arcs would be near the bottom
The Glaive can easily be beaten in a turning game by the Spectre which also has a very small blind spot in addition to better gun placements.

So Colonials have the Scythe.

Cylons have the Liche, Banshee, and Spectre


The point with fixing them is that Cylons have smaller ones than Colonial ones. Try, for example, flying a Jormung and then flying a Jotunn, a smart banshee of equal level can easily solo the Jotunn with little loss of health. Whereas a Scythe will most likely get trolled if it tries, or take alot of damage.
OK, so you don't like that you lack the necessary piloting skills to kill off strikes in your line. Welcome to BSGO. Strike beats line.

Am I right in assuming that a guy who spent most of his young BSGO life camping the blindspots on platforms is now complaining about the blindspots on the ships that the aforementioned blindspots allowed him to afford?

That confuses me :confused:

I'm not a slide user but I am a line pilot (slowly becoming a strike pilot; needed a change BugPoint simply won't bother to provide) who knows simply that running away in your line will get you killed against any half decent strike pilot.

Don't blame BugPoint for your lack of skill. Get better, and don't give them an excuse not to produce new content.
The goal is the balance the blindspots out. I KNOW the strike beats the line. I WANT the strike to beat the line. But What I don't want is a Cylon Escort beating a Colonial Line b/c of the frakking huge blindspots.

I have plenty of skill, else I would have raged-quit Kobol along time ago.

Idc about new content anymore, I can't even drop a toid for 5 minutes without getting trolled by a dozen Liches with level 10 tech anymore.
No it is not balanced. The Scythe and Glaive are very specialised ships. The Liche is a universal one, which is why the Halberd and Liche are the most used escorts. The Liche's advantage is so huge that the small advantages the specialised ships may have are far from making up for the liche.
For the most part, that is correct, but don't overnerf them...
Alright, lets see...

Scythe vs Banshee: On come on. The banshee will lose out, at an equal level of skill, and no additional gear whatsoever. Perfect equality, and the Banshee loses out. Same case as if the scythe and banshee were used to fight a strike.
The Banshee wins if it turns hard enough, its a draw if it doesn't. This one could be argued either way. I could go for it having a slightly longer nose and wider blindspot but much more and it looses its usefulness.
Glaive vs Spectre: This is hard to decide. Escort v escort, just depends on who gets the better attack vector here (ie. who gets to jam their nose up the tailpipes of their opponent first). Escort v strike... Glaive will win, hands down.
The Spectre has better forward gun placements, and maybe a lil bigger blindspot. It can win at the turning game wheras the Glaive will have to turn really hard to get its forward guns on the spectre.

The Spectre can also use slide against strikes whereas that doesn't really help the Glaive.
Maul vs Wraith: Escort v escort, these 2 are basically tied. same huge gun spread, same huge arc of turn to get guns on target. The gun positioning won't affect this too much, trust me. I've flown both.
I've flow them too, and I've had success using the Wraith with Slide whereas the Maul is crap no matter what. A smart strike can easily hide about the maul's engines making it impossible to hit even when using slide.

In a fight, I'd take the Wraith over the Maul anyday.
Halberd v Liche: Escort v escort, The Liche will win, at least in a turning match. Escort v strike, it takes considerably less skill to kill a Hal than a Liche. Here is pretty much the only case the Cylons win.
Atleast you admit that on the big escort issue... The others might semi-counterbalance themselves if this and the line issues where resolved...
Jotunn vs Jormung: Both flying bricks, both just as easy to kill. If anything, they have approximately the same blindspot. Both have a single cannon on both sides that is able to shoot backwards at anything not sitting directly in the engine block. The other cannons still won't shoot unless yous tray way too far from the engines, or the topside/lower decks.
Yes, but the Jotunn has much wider engines going by your argument thus a wider blindspot.

The line issue could be solved by getting rid of auto-orientation but that's most likely never going to happen.
Vanir vs Hel: Oh, don't even get me started on these 2. Terrible blinds on both of them, both are ridiculously easy to frag. Especially if they decide to move when you're shooting them.
Both of them need nerfing with better blindspots. Hel can be creamed by sitting on its head and Vanir in the engines or anywhere in the center of the ship.
Aesir vs Fenrir: Alright, this one goes to the Cylons. The Aesir, being much flatter than it's counterpart, will have a lot more trouble to kill a blindspotter than the Fenrir will. Not that it's easy to do so by any means. Especially when said blindspotter uses avoidance (-cough- mostofserver -cough-)
But still, it does need some balancing.
Gungnir vs Nidhogg: Seriously, if you think the Nid has it easy... think again. One gun firing at a target sitting behind it, vs the full broadside any experienced Gungnir pilot will have no problems bring to bear on a target behind them? Please. The only thing a Nidhogg is better at is a full frontal assault. Just trust me on that, I had a better time against nidhoggs because of the wide rear gun positioning than the gungnir, which has a (relatively) narrow corridor where I can sit.
A nidhogg can win by stay by the side of a gungnir, b/c of its gun placements it can fire more cannons that way than the gungnir can.
So, unless you wanna turn this into a gun placement/accuracy discussion... I'm sorry. Blindspots aren't any worse towards the Colonials than the Cylons in 3/4 cases. In several of them, the Colonials actually win out.

Please... at least TRY to fly both sides before going on a giant rant about how one side is OP.
Well if thats so, how about you come prove it to us on Kobol by showing off your skill and slaughter these bloody Liches and Fenrirs for us.
There is little wrong with the halberd. It's more the Liche which is op.


I did not question anything you said about the interceptors. Merely pointed out that the inner / outer side gun issue of the assaults applies to the interceptors as well.
Although I must admit I am not so sure about that. Maybe the Aesir has 2 inner side guns as well, like the Fenrir. Still, I am completely with you concerning the interceptors.


I doubt that is true for any experienced Strike. It is absolutely possible to kill a Gungnir (without slide) without getting shot at, once the strike is in the blindspot. Not so against a Nidhogg. And if it does have a slide, it is no problem to match the speed on its top, waiting until the slide runs out. Again, not so against a Nidhogg.


And I just pointed out why that is an additional disadvantage for colonial strikes. Again, I did not question anything what you said about the interceptors.



3/8? Lets see:
Scythe > Banshee
Maul = Wraith
Glaive = Spectre (While the Glaive has the smaller blindspot to the rear, i would rather fight a sliding / sitting Glaive than a sliding / sitting Spectre)
Halberd < Liche
Aesir < Fenrir
Jotunn < Jormung
Vanir = Hel
Gungnir < Nidhogg

So Colonials have the advantage in 1 ship, Cylons have advantage in 4 ships and 3 ships are even.

And I would like to point out that the 4 ships the Cylons have the advantage in are about 80% of all the used escorts and liners and they make up almost all high level escorts and liners.
Agreed

[rayzilla]

Dude, come try to survive on Kobol. Its a hellhole b/c the ship unbalance is magnified. Scythes r the only good colonial ship and a Liche can beat them... We're screwed no matter how you slice the cake on Kobol...


Been there, done that, slammed a Dew and got the T-shirt. I also survived as a noob Colonial on Scorpia when the Cylons were kicking butt.

Balance between ships isn't going to fix your problem, sorry.

Here's the funny thing about this game. It's both a fleet game and a solo PvP game. Unfortunately, you can't have balance in one without unbalancing the other.

[FBI_Spy]

Been there, done that, slammed a Dew and got the T-shirt. I also survived as a noob Colonial on Scorpia when the Cylons were kicking butt.

Balance between ships isn't going to fix your problem, sorry.

Here's the funny thing about this game. It's both a fleet game and a solo PvP game. Unfortunately, you can't have balance in one without unbalancing the other.
I know the balance on kobol can't be solved by it, but it sure as hell will help. Atleast I will be able to defend myself for once!

Also, as to the faction balance issue, that can be solved by adding automatic safegaurds that kick in when there is a faction imbalance. The goal is to get safegaurds that automatically ajust and counterbalance faction imbalance, b/c otherwise faction balance is frankly impossible in any noticable form.

[rayzilla]

I know the balance on kobol can't be solved by it, but it sure as hell will help. Atleast I will be able to defend myself for once!

Also, as to the faction balance issue, that can be solved by adding automatic safegaurds that kick in when there is a faction imbalance. The goal is to get safegaurds that automatically ajust and counterbalance faction imbalance, b/c otherwise faction balance is frankly impossible in any noticable form.

Hate to sound trite, but maybe it is you. Your style may not actually work with whatever ship you choose to fly. For instance, I primarily fly my Adv Mk VII and do well with it. Even switching to my Adv Mk II changes things enough that I don't do as well with it. Sometimes I fly my Adv Halberd, pretty much just because I have it. I tend to avoid a lot of PvP with it because I stink at flying it. As for my Lines? They're handy when I don't want to make a lot of jumps to get home. I don't even have any systems for them other than FTL engines. I didn't even bother buying other systems because I know I'd hate flying them.

So, is there a particular ship in which you do well? If so, stick with it and perfect it. If not, time to experiment and figure out with which one you do best.

[FBI_Spy]

Hate to sound trite, but maybe it is you. Your style may not actually work with whatever ship you choose to fly. For instance, I primarily fly my Adv Mk VII and do well with it. Even switching to my Adv Mk II changes things enough that I don't do as well with it. Sometimes I fly my Adv Halberd, pretty much just because I have it. I tend to avoid a lot of PvP with it because I stink at flying it. As for my Lines? They're handy when I don't want to make a lot of jumps to get home. I don't even have any systems for them other than FTL engines. I didn't even bother buying other systems because I know I'd hate flying them.

So, is there a particular ship in which you do well? If so, stick with it and perfect it. If not, time to experiment and figure out with which one you do best.
I fly a Scythe and a Raptor, both adv. With level 5-6 tech and counting. I grind platforms in the Raptor and do everything else in my Scythe unless I get bored (in which case I get out the Jotunn/Flying brick or Maul/Crap-o-holic).

The problem is that escorts as the best ship ingame (atleast on kobol) and the liche is the best escort...

[rayzilla]

The problem is that escorts as the best ship ingame (atleast on kobol) and the liche is the best escort...

The Liche is always going to be better than the Scythe. You have to pay cubits for it then advance it with merits. It damn well better be superior to a tyllium ship.

[zatoichimk2]

Removed due to another post i made with the same crap in it:p

[jellyb]

Trying to troll a user rather than add soemthing to the debate, how droll, [yawns]


Calling out someone's incorrect information is not trolling.

You consistently fill the forums with incorrect and incomplete information then want to resort to name calling when you're called out ( for both being wrong, and not reading the original post before replying ).

------------

And as for your quest for "fairness"

Remind us again why you quit your cylon account. Oh yes... because you felt outnumbered and victimized. So... you switch servers, switch sides and your search for "fairness" revolves solely around improving your personal ship.

I don't notice any posts discussing balance; presumably because you dropped your cylon account completely so it doesn't concern you anymore.

--------------


For the record, I couldn't care less if they change the ships.

Where I draw the line is the continued implication that a purposeful design is a "bug" that you are entitled to have changed, especially when combined with the inevitably incorrect statement that "all our ships are worse" or the picking and choosing of issues to prioritize... blind spot here, gun placement there.

There have been HUNDREDS of threads on this subject. The ships have been like this since day 1. Why would you possibly think they're going to be changed.

[ZER0COOL]

Calling out someone's incorrect information is not trolling.

You consistently fill the forums with incorrect and incomplete information then want to resort to name calling when you're called out ( for both being wrong, and not reading the original post before replying ).

I repeat, trolling a user because you don't agree with personal POV's, pretty sure that is against the forum rules too if any mods are reading. [yawns again]

[.Noble.]

same discussion in new forum structure .. w/e !

[zatoichimk2]

Jotunn vs Jormung: Both flying bricks, both just as easy to kill. If anything, they have approximately the same blindspot. Both have a single cannon on both sides that is able to shoot backwards at anything not sitting directly in the engine block. The other cannons still won't shoot unless yous tray way too far from the engines, or the topside/lower decks.

Not so,the jotunn is a much easier line to ride in an escort,or even as a cylon line!Yes,the jotunn can have a cylon line ride it like a donkey,the jormungg is also a much better wiggler,and the vertical blinds on the jor are much much narrower,needing only a small tilt of the ship to get its full sides firing again.The butt is also a bit narrower than the jotunns.

Vanir vs Hel: Oh, don't even get me started on these 2. Terrible blinds on both of them, both are ridiculously easy to frag. Especially if they decide to move when you're shooting them.

Yep,though even with both being bad,the vanir is still the worse off out of the two being much wider.

Aesir vs Fenrir: Alright, this one goes to the Cylons. The Aesir, being much flatter than it's counterpart, will have a lot more trouble to kill a blindspotter than the Fenrir will. Not that it's easy to do so by any means. Especially when said blindspotter uses avoidance (-cough- mostofserver -cough-)

Yep.

Gungnir vs Nidhogg: Seriously, if you think the Nid has it easy... think again. One gun firing at a target sitting behind it, vs the full broadside any experienced Gungnir pilot will have no problems bring to bear on a target behind them? Please. The only thing a Nidhogg is better at is a full frontal assault. Just trust me on that, I had a better time against nidhoggs because of the wide rear gun positioning than the gungnir, which has a (relatively) narrow corridor where I can sit.

Nid is deadly up close to any colonial line,including the gung,gung will be better in a fleet fight,the nid in open world pvp.

Gung suffers the same problem as the aesir/vanir/jotunn/ having a large blind both up top and bottom...albeit the gungs is narrower than those other 3 but still wide enough to park any escort in it comfortably,i have parked a fen in its blind on a few occasions but i'll be honest in saying the pilots weren't terribly bright.

So the best colonial line in terms of blind spots and gun placement is still beaten comfortably in those terms by the jormung andthe fenrir,with the nidhog being up for debate.



So, unless you wanna turn this into a gun placement/accuracy discussion... I'm sorry. Blindspots aren't any worse towards the Colonials than the Cylons in 3/4 cases. In several of them, the Colonials actually win out.

Please... at least TRY to fly both sides before going on a giant rant about how one side is OP.

My answer in red,although i think you're talking as a strike versus these lines.

Perhaps he's talking about making the blindspots equitable. Or maybe put a slot dedicated to a pdc behind the bigger ships. It won't take out a strike or escort, but it'll make them think twice about parking there. Or better yet, put a single weapon slot back there because my line guns can't seem to hit a strike, pvp or npc, except for once every four or five volleys.

I do agree though that there is an issue. I, like many in this game, play both sides albeit on different servers. In my colonial account last week, I was parked on top of a pvp Jorm in my strike. I mean I was dead in the center of what should've been a narrow blindspot and he wasn't really moving. imagine my surprise when his left side guns fired on me. That's beyond a 180 degree arc. But comparing the two sides, it's easier to exploit Colonial blindspots than Cylon ones.

I wouldn't advocate making Cylon ship blindspots bigger, but at least bring the Colonial ships in line with the Cylon ships. And to quell any more talk of the Liche's blindspots, they are indeed there as I've had more than one Colonial Viper exploit it, hats off to them!!! :-)

The people that complain the most are the ones that lose a lot. And, um, well I lose a lot too but I try to keep laughing since the game is supposed to be relaxing, not stressful. But we've all seen it, those that win don't want changes, and those that lose want changes that would enable them to win. It's one of those issues that I feel will never be settled because it's impossible to please everyone. In the meantime, just try to have some fun.

That is the thing about cylon lines, with the narrowness of the blind,all the line has to do is tilt their ship a little and it moves the gun arcs into what was a blind spot,whilst the cols is so wide that would never work.

@no one specifically,i long ago revised my opinion about escort balancing,while i do see the advantages the liche has,the escorts as a whole are fairly well balanced,halberd treated as a more long range fighter wins,and the scythe like everyone else always mentions,is beautiful in its gun posistioning(still looks like a giant boot to me tho)

As people been saying,cylons do get outnumbered on most servers so perhaps making the col lines equal to the cylons would actually add even more to imbalance,there are people out there who choose their side based on the ships strengths and weaknesses(i know several)and equalling it out would give them no reason to be a cylon escort/line pilot any longer,so unless bp do find the magical balance fix,they are better left as is.

[-HarleyQuinn-1]

The thing is, once you know how to solve a problem, the problem's magnitude is not important.

I'd switch my Nidhogg to a Gungnir anytime, or with the skin of a Vanir, or a flying brick with same stats, i'd fly that too. Because i do know that Sliding would fix the problem; And this is just an excuse for horrible pilots. There are lots of Gungnir & Jotunn & Vanir pilots in Libran who kill their chasers with sliding, so there you got your proof aswell.

Having a fatarse ship is a bad thing, i know, my Nidhogg's arse is as big as a Jotunn's, but stop showing this as the biggest of your problems and deal with it; Not everything in the game has to work by your rules.

[FBI_Spy]

The thing is, once you know how to solve a problem, the problem's magnitude is not important.

I'd switch my Nidhogg to a Gungnir anytime, or with the skin of a Vanir, or a flying brick with same stats, i'd fly that too. Because i do know that Sliding would fix the problem; And this is just an excuse for horrible pilots. There are lots of Gungnir & Jotunn & Vanir pilots in Libran who kill their chasers with sliding, so there you got your proof aswell.

Having a fatarse ship is a bad thing, i know, my Nidhogg's arse is as big as a Jotunn's, but stop showing this as the biggest of your problems and deal with it; Not everything in the game has to work by your rules.
RSC Slide doesn't solve everything. If it did there'd be a hell lot more pp using it. Slide drains a crucial engine slot that could be used for avoidance, turning buffs, etc.

Slide only works for coverup up engine or side-of-ship blindspots. Top-of-ship or bottom-of-ship blindspots are leathal regardless of slide. And those are the blindspots most cylon ships don't have (with the obvious exception of the Hel)

[-HarleyQuinn-1]

Oh sorry then, i guess it wasnt me clearing hordes of enemies who line up to get into my blindspot with slide, rather it was my grand-grandfather.

[rayzilla]

RSC Slide doesn't solve everything. If it did there'd be a hell lot more pp using it. Slide drains a crucial engine slot that could be used for avoidance, turning buffs, etc.


What? Huh?

OK, let's talk about this a second. What is the avoidance of a Line? 25? 50? Do you really think one RCS duct is going to make a difference? No.

Turning buff? Did you not stop and think? A Slide is a better turning buff than a gyro when you're in a fight, especially when you have a strike on your rear. On top of that, the Slide has two uses - one is the slide itself, but it also prolongs your speed buff. Far more useful than a duct or a gyro, IMO.

And even though he doesn't need the backup, did you happen to read Harley's stats in his signature? Do you think you have the experience to tell him he's wrong? Get over yourself.

[ZER0COOL]

As I have continually said, undoubtly there is equipment and skills that can counter strikes and escorts getting in your blind spots.

The issue is that colonial line pilots seem to need to use these as standard just to break even with our Cylon counterparts, there for reducing our choice as to what equipment we can choose to use.

All we/I want is to be put on an equal play field, if I die after that, then that's my problem for sucking at the game!

[-HarleyQuinn-1]

Using Slide is the way out of having blindspot-ganked.

You ask "Why do i even HAVE a blindspot?"

I say "I have one aswell as big as yours, why don't i whine?"

[ZER0COOL]

Using Slide is the way out of having blindspot-ganked.

You ask "Why do i even HAVE a blindspot?"

I say "I have one aswell as big as yours, why don't i whine?"

Because my friend yours is not only 'actually' smaller but given your gun placement it technically smaller with only a small turn, therefore you do not suffer with strikes and escorts sat in your ass as much as us, as Colonial strikes know not to bother trying as its pointless.

I suspect if you suffered with not being able to return fire half as much as us, you'd whine more too!

I cannot see why Cylon pilots are so objectionable to the Colonial lines being brought up to an equal spec, why is it that you don't want to fight us on equal terms?

[-HarleyQuinn-1]

I've played in these situations too, you think i was using this ship from day1?

Yet i always figured out how to survive, its about using what you have on highest potential.

[ZER0COOL]

I've played in these situations too, you think i was using this ship from day1?

Yet i always knew how to survive, its about using what you have on highest potential.

I agree you didn't start at level 255 and when I'm not on the forums you know I never turn down a fight in game, but I don't see the harm in asking for equality. if you don't ask you'll never get!

[Charlie81]

Ok, I'm sorry, but this was a blindspot discussion, not a gun placement discussion. And the only reason people complain about blindspots is strikers sitting there.

Just to clarify, ALL my posts were on blindspot issues, NOT if a liner has a certain advantage over another liner due to the positions of it's guns.

In regards to BLINDSPOTS,with the escorts, ALL colonial ships bar the halberd actually win out.

Scythe: 3rd gun below that will win out in a turning match against both strikes and escorts. The banshee is by no means superior, because with the exact same loadout, skills traning and pilots, the scythe will be guaranteed a 3rd gun in the fight, while the Banshee only has the 2 side guns to work with.The Glaive is a nightmare to sit behind, nowhere to hide. The Maul: Still less wide than the Wraith in terms of the dorsal, ventral, and rear blinds.

In the liners, the cylons have an advantage in terms of BLINDSPOTS with the Fenrir, and the Jormung. The Nidhogg vs Gungnir debate could go either way, because of the points I made in my other posts. Being able to get 3 guns on target with some manuevering outside of just flying in a straight turn hoping the strike pilot screws up may just trump having one cannon firing every few seconds, doing a little bit of damage, which can be DC'd away.

St3v3f26, the designs are by no means favouring Cylon ships when it comes to blindspots. The cylons win out in 3, the Colonials win out bigtime in 3, and the rest are basically tied.

Again, if any of you actually read everything in my posts... if this was a gun placement issue, I'm all for it. hell, I'd even argue for a redesign of ships to move emplacements around. But seriously, read the title. Blindspots, not gun placement. Start another discussion if guns are what you really want to fix.

[rayzilla]

Ok, I'm sorry, but this was a blindspot discussion, not a gun placement discussion. And the only reason people complain about blindspots is strikers sitting there.

Aren't blind spots created by poor gun placement?

Just to clarify, ALL my posts were on blindspot issues, NOT if a liner has a certain advantage over another liner due to the positions of it's guns.


In the liners, the cylons have an advantage in terms of BLINGSPOTS with the Fenrir, and the Jormung.


Yes, I often see those two wearing a LOT of gaudy jewelry. :)

Good points, though.

[-HarleyQuinn-1]

I agree you didn't start at level 255 and when I'm not on the forums you know I never turn down a fight in game, but I don't see the harm in asking for equality. if you don't ask you'll never get!

Hearing the term 'Equality' from a Libran Colonial is very... Ironic. No offense, it's just the situation.

[Charlie81]

Aren't blind spots created by poor gun placement?

Just to clarify, ALL my posts were on blindspot issues, NOT if a liner has a certain advantage over another liner due to the positions of it's guns.

Well, that's true. But, in terms of gun placement, the rear ones are the ones that count for blindspots. The frontal ones don't do so much in that department. If we're talking blindspots, then only the rear facing guns matter, not how the forward ones operate.

Yes, I often see those two wearing a LOT of gaudy jewelry. :)

Good points, though.

Gah... cheers, I'll fix that in a sec. Gimme a break though, it's early morning, and I don't drink coffee. ==

[taikwandomaster3]

As much as I agree that blind spots need adjusting, how about fixing the game mechanics that allow ships, lines especially, to fire through their own damn hulls? Who here has been tucked underneath a jormung, ready to blow it to bits, and suddenly there's cannon fire coming out of the hull? Same goes for the fenrir.

[-HarleyQuinn-1]

I'd like to ask how a rocket at the size of your ship can hardly damage you for the 10% of your HP?

[ScotsTemplar]

:confused: Blindspots arent only to the rear.

When used in comparison to a mid level strike with a decent skilled pilot -

A colonial going up against most pvp cylon lines will be frakked easily , we all know there are 'blindspots' - but compared with the blindspots on most colonial lines they are very very narrow.

As another poster pointed out - cylon lines are tall and thin mostly , with the obvious exception being the hel which is acknowledged for having an easily targeted and easy to stay with blindspot on the top panel....staying hard up against a wide vanirs a$$ ( and avoiding weapons easily ) or the huge engine block of the jot as it ponderously turns must be simplicity itself.

Try doing it against a fenrir with next to nowhere to utilise / hide.....jormungs arent as bad - a decent strike pilot up against a bad line jockey will manage a kill as long as he can maintain his speed and proximity to the jorms a$$.

Banshee v Scythe - I think the scythe will win 7/10.

Glaive v Spectre - probably a draw , you could easily go into micro details regarding points of advantage / disadvantage etc but most impartial players would probably agree its too close to call.

Maul v Wraith - yet again very close , probably a draw...no real advantages either way.

Liiche v Halberd - Halberds are good ships , but , with a very slim blindspot and good gun positions - the liiche will take it 7/10.

Jot v Jorm - Once again , probably a draw , both are big slow clumsy mothas with basically the same blindspots.

Vanir v Hel - Draw , for sure.

Fenrir v Aesir - Fenrir will win 7/10.
Just try manoeuvering a vanir near a rockfield , so fat it gets bounced around constantly , try it with the knifelike Fen ? gotta be much easier to swing around any obstacles.
Fenrirs blindspot once again smaller in comparison.

Gungnir v Nidhogg ? - I think would be fairly even .

When taken into the context of a single strike going up against any of their counterparts ships > I have to say that the cylon side is probably the best off...in fact I would say that its not even close.

When taken into the context of 'like versus like' then I'd say that it is almost 50/50 , but the liiche just swings it again in the cylons favour.

As for the argument that better ships for the cylons will counteract server imbalance - eh ? wtf ? Server imbalance cannot be factored into any ship stats , thats a no brainer...some servers might have more cylon , or more higher level players than the colonials , how would weighting the cylons ship stats help in that situation ?

At best the reason for the overall cylon ship superiority is an oversight , at worst , it's a flaw which is calling out to be fixed.

We all have our own opinions , only BP can answer as to why they were setup in such a manner.

[FBI_Spy]

What? Huh?

OK, let's talk about this a second. What is the avoidance of a Line? 25? 50? Do you really think one RCS duct is going to make a difference? No.

Turning buff? Did you not stop and think? A Slide is a better turning buff than a gyro when you're in a fight, especially when you have a strike on your rear. On top of that, the Slide has two uses - one is the slide itself, but it also prolongs your speed buff. Far more useful than a duct or a gyro, IMO.

And even though he doesn't need the backup, did you happen to read Harley's stats in his signature? Do you think you have the experience to tell him he's wrong? Get over yourself.
You just proved my point, one Avoidance buff on a line is about 30. You can get a Fenrir/Aesir near/at escort avoidance using them. Will one make a difference? Depends on who your foe is and how much it's upgraded. Max possible avoidance per buff is 75 at level 15.

The turning buff was just an example, even though its crap on most ships. Avoidance and speed buffs are the things I'd replace a slide with. And as I said before, if its so useful then why isn't it that popular? The answer is quite simply it makes your ship inherently weaker to enemies who do not need to hide in your blindspot regardless of whether they still try.

And Slide doesn't justify ship imbalance, if you had the Cylon vs the Colonial variant of any given ship where you say Slide solves the Colonial's problem with EVERYTHING the same except the slide on the one ship, the Cylon ship would have near guaranteed victory.



Also, quit smack talking in my thread. Clearly your comments are flawed else you wouldn't need to attack me personally.

[-HarleyQuinn-1]

People dont use Slide because they don't know how to use it, or they THINK it's useless.

Emphasizing on the word 'THINK'. They THINK it's useless or less important than any single engine type.

After having it saving my arse against tons of chasers, i can say it's one of the most important equipments on my ship; Yet you choose to disagree for the reason above..

I've done my part for giving out the clue to get these whiners out of their misery, yet if they disagree, i have nothing else to do, they are bound to die.

[St3v3f26]

St3v3f26, the designs are by no means favouring Cylon ships when it comes to blindspots. The cylons win out in 3, the Colonials win out bigtime in 3, and the rest are basically tied.

Sorry, that is rubbish.
The Scythe is clearly better, yes. But the Banshee hasn't much of a blindspot either.
Wraith and Maul are pretty much equal. The Maul may be flatter and thiner, being an advantage in general, but the Wraith is built very tall so you either have to be further behind so you don't get much from the bigger blindspot. So although the Wraith's is bigger, it is harder to exploit. Draw.
Spectre and Glaive are a draw as well. The Glaive has a smaller blindspot to the rear but is easier to kill when sliding or sitting still than the Spectre.
Liche and Halberd: Nuff said. Liche wins BIG TIME.

Scythe > Banshee
Maul = Wraith
Glaive = Spectre (While the Glaive has the smaller blindspot to the rear, i would rather fight a sliding / sitting Glaive than a sliding / sitting Spectre)
Halberd < Liche
Aesir < Fenrir
Jotunn < Jormung
Vanir = Hel
Gungnir < Nidhogg

So Colonials have the advantage in 1 ship, Cylons have advantage in 4 ships and 3 ships are even.

And I would like to point out that the 4 ships the Cylons have the advantage in are about 80% of all the used escorts and liners and they make up almost all high level escorts and liners.

Please have a look at the last part of that posting. Even if the Colonials would win in all 4 ships the cylons don't win, it simply wouldn't matter. The Cylons have the advantage in ALL ships that matter. The only slightly significant force that the colonials have the advantage in is the interceptor escort, but that one only wins against a liche and stuff as a high speed missile boat.

[zatoichimk2]

As for the argument that better ships for the cylons will counteract server imbalance - eh ? wtf ? Server imbalance cannot be factored into any ship stats , thats a no brainer...some servers might have more cylon , or more higher level players than the colonials , how would weighting the cylons ship stats help in that situation ?

At best the reason for the overall cylon ship superiority is an oversight , at worst , it's a flaw which is calling out to be fixed.

We all have our own opinions , only BP can answer as to why they were setup in such a manner.

I didn't say it'd counteract server imbalance,but it does help in its own way.

Colonials are the most popular choice despite the crappy lines and the halberd being slightly inferior(which as the merit ship is the most popular escort choice)

If colonial lines were suddenly either thinned out or cylon lines made wider to put all the ships on a par with each other,do you think that would have no effect on either already outnumbered cylons across most servers,or those players who have no real loyalty to any faction to the show but choose their side based off the best ship designs?Think about it,ofcourse it would have an adverse effect.

[-HarleyQuinn-1]

So give all the Colonials the Cylon ships and vice versa; You really think there's gonna be a radical difference?

[ilovenukes4eva]

I. Want. That. Glaive. That is all.

[FBI_Spy]

People dont use Slide because they don't know how to use it, or they THINK it's useless.

Emphasizing on the word 'THINK'. They THINK it's useless or less important than any single engine type.

After having it saving my arse against tons of chasers, i can say it's one of the most important equipments on my ship; Yet you choose to disagree for the reason above..

I've done my part for giving out the clue to get these whiners out of their misery, yet if they disagree, i have nothing else to do, they are bound to die.
Slide doesn't help the Maul cover its top-o-engines blindspot, same for most if not all colonial lines. And again, as I said before, the cylon ships don't have near the same issues. The only one with a colonial size blindspot is the Hel.

Slide is only effective if some of your weapons (forward and/or side) are close to the center of your ship. If they are further out they loose effectiveness. Cylon ships usally have one or the other close to the center of their ship (like the fenrir) whereas the colonials ones don't (to the extent cylon ones do)


The point is regardless of whether you use blindspots the cylons have the advantage in the majority of ships.

[Shuttdog]

The idea that a strike craft, on any team, can "park" behind an escort or lineship is at best just stupid. Name an aircraft carrier or battleship that was ever designed that would allow for a blind spot where any type of lesser enemy craft could sit and destroy it. The idea that BP should adjust the blind spots on cylon or colonial ships is really a null arguement. There shouldn't be a blind spot period. There is no need for a "defensive" mechanism to be added to the game that would take up a gun/hull slot to fix the blindspot issue. The strike craft are overpowered and the blindspot is trash. You would be better off to save your cubits/tylium to max out the adv mark vii or warraider and use the exploit than to buy an escort or lineship. There is a player on my server that finds solo escorts/lines "parks" behind them and destroys them in a ridiculously short amount of time due to his upgrades. If a second ship comes in range and starts to attack him he kicks in his boosters, runs, heals and repeats when the opportunity is at hand. It is all really ridiculous, think about it. A single jet fighter taking out an aircraft carrier w/o a nuke?!?! It doesn't happen so why does it happen all the time in BSGO. It isn't even fun to start an account on a server that has developed strikes because you can't buy an escort/line to off set the level difference and unless you want to spend foolish amounts of real money on fake money to buy exp boosters you will probably never catch up to the established high lvl strikes that exploit this "blindspot". Seriously, 86 the blindspot. It is just plain dumb.

[-HarleyQuinn-1]

Whats plain stupid is not actually the blindspot, its the fact that a strike can have a picnic 10 meters near a battleships exhaust without being fried...

[St3v3f26]

What is ridiculous is that a ship can jump next to another and the other ship doesn't get damage. You saw what happened to Galactica when Boomer jumped like 100 meters from it? If a viper jumps 10 meters on top of a liner, the liner should be destroyed for the sake of realism...

[-HarleyQuinn-1]

Well on the other hand, the Liner can jumpfhuck the entire chaser group back to Basestar, at least i would...

[anatharion]

The idea that a strike craft, on any team, can "park" behind an escort or lineship is at best just stupid. Name an aircraft carrier or battleship that was ever designed that would allow for a blind spot where any type of lesser enemy craft could sit and destroy it. The idea that BP should adjust the blind spots on cylon or colonial ships is really a null arguement. There shouldn't be a blind spot period. There is no need for a "defensive" mechanism to be added to the game that would take up a gun/hull slot to fix the blindspot issue. The strike craft are overpowered and the blindspot is trash. You would be better off to save your cubits/tylium to max out the adv mark vii or warraider and use the exploit than to buy an escort or lineship. There is a player on my server that finds solo escorts/lines "parks" behind them and destroys them in a ridiculously short amount of time due to his upgrades. If a second ship comes in range and starts to attack him he kicks in his boosters, runs, heals and repeats when the opportunity is at hand. It is all really ridiculous, think about it. A single jet fighter taking out an aircraft carrier w/o a nuke?!?! It doesn't happen so why does it happen all the time in BSGO. It isn't even fun to start an account on a server that has developed strikes because you can't buy an escort/line to off set the level difference and unless you want to spend foolish amounts of real money on fake money to buy exp boosters you will probably never catch up to the established high lvl strikes that exploit this "blindspot". Seriously, 86 the blindspot. It is just plain dumb.

And without some sort of blindspot for strikes to use what do you propose in the way of other changes so that strikes aren't turned into totally useless things?

You talk about navy experiences, about ship not being made with blindspots, yet, no battleship would leave port without other ships to protect it from other threats like submarines or strike craft. Why do you feel lines in this game should just fly around without proper company? Line ships are meant to do fleet battles. Hence the name...

[Vanguard]

And without some sort of blindspot for strikes to use what do you propose in the way of other changes so that strikes aren't turned into totally useless things?


I've said it before and I'll say it again. The blindspot could probably be removed if a strike craft could target the ENTIRE escort or line ship instead of just the center point where the recticle is located.

The fact that you have to keep that one point within range/firing arc in order to continue engaging your target, is why the blindspot, as ludicrous as it may sound, is needed.

And it's also funny how the "realism" crowd seems to ignore this fact when they start whining about a single strike not being able to take out a "massive line".

Note: Not arguing with your anatharion, it's just that your post was the best one to quote for my reply.

[Tempest024]

People have been complaining about blind spots since closed beta. These are not flaws, the game was designed this way. They don't need to be fixed, you have to adapt.

[VoiVoD]

+1 for Tempest024.

But when will the next nugget open a "Blindspots are ..."-Thread ...

[sibience]

Blindspots are a game mechanic there because of the flawed combat mechanics of the game.

Ideally there would be no blind spots on any ships and strikes could kill lines as they would all like to be able to, by making passes and taking out key areas etc etc.

Judging by most of the posts I read in this thread it seems to get back to the old strikes v line issue again but when a strike is fighting a line who cares how big the blind spot is?

It doesn't matter if the blind spot is the size of a jormungs/jotuns or a gun/nids a competent strike pilot will quite happily sit in it regardless.

[FBI_Spy]

Blindspots are a game mechanic there because of the flawed combat mechanics of the game.

Ideally there would be no blind spots on any ships and strikes could kill lines as they would all like to be able to, by making passes and taking out key areas etc etc.

Judging by most of the posts I read in this thread it seems to get back to the old strikes v line issue again but when a strike is fighting a line who cares how big the blind spot is?

It doesn't matter if the blind spot is the size of a jormungs/jotuns or a gun/nids a competent strike pilot will quite happily sit in it regardless.
I'm talking about Line vs Line and Line vs Escort. Strikes are SUPPOSED to beat lines. However, an escort with a brain will slaughter a jotunn/<insert line name with big blindspot here> without taking litterally any significant damage. The line is SUPPOSED to beat the escort, not the other way around.

Faction balance comes into this b/c cylon lines have superior blindspots. The goal is to bring this back to Strike > Line > Escort > Strike instead of Strike < Escort > Line < Strike.

[rayzilla]

http://jamesmarks.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/beating-a-dead-horse-horse-demotivational-poster-1267844749.jpg?w=540&h=438

[Intigam2177]

its so annoying to hear people cry about being beat by ships they arent built to beat... wanna out run escorts in ur strike? take out ur RCS ducting... want strikes to stay off your rear? put a slide in.. u want to kill escorts in ur strike? learn how to fly... i suck in a strike v escort which is right... escorts are meant to kill strikes... lines are meant to kill escorts and lines... STRIKES ARE ONLY MEANT TO DOGFIGHT STRIKES!!!... build ur ships according to what u want to kill and if u get killed by what ur not built to kill dont cry about it... <uberfacepalm>

[FBI_Spy]

its so annoying to hear people cry about being beat by ships they arent built to beat... wanna out run escorts in ur strike? take out ur RCS ducting... want strikes to stay off your rear? put a slide in.. u want to kill escorts in ur strike? learn how to fly... i suck in a strike v escort which is right... escorts are meant to kill strikes... lines are meant to kill escorts and lines... STRIKES ARE ONLY MEANT TO DOGFIGHT STRIKES!!!... build ur ships according to what u want to kill and if u get killed by what ur not built to kill dont cry about it... <uberfacepalm>
Your missing the point.


A. (overall) Cylon blindspots and gun placements are smaller and better than Colonial ones

B. Slide only solves issues with the engine blindspot, on most Colonial ship, you can hide in their top/bottom blindspots b/c they are so fat compared to cylon ones. Its so bad any intelligent escort can slaughter most colonial lines without taking much more than a scratch.

C. I'm glad you agree lines are supposed to beat escorts, now then, come try n' fly some colonial lines and compare with your cylon countherparts. It doesn't take long to figure out something isn't right.

D. I'm not asking to beat strikes, I'm asking Colonial ships and Cylon ships to be balanced so a fight comes down to skill and equiped tech, not whether your cylon or colonial.


How many times must I repeat this for you people to understand?


Both sides have escorts that are overpowered or underpowered, however, hel aside, the cylon lines are way better ships than their colonial counterparts.

[KoTLoNa]

God I love munching on this can of worms.

@swhitehead -- while your logic may be sound in RL, this is a game. Without the blindspot the game goes from rock/paper/scissors to I got the biggest ship I WIN :) Everyone has to fly a lvl 10 decked out line and whoever has the most cubits to spend on ammo is the winner.

If this supposed bug must be fixed, then increase the blindspots on the ships with negligible blindspots, like the scythe/glaive/liche for example. Seems to fit the definition of fairness most of these threads are going for.

Every ship has it's advantages and disadvantages. All ships have this interesting thing called equipment slots that can be adapted to maximize strengths or minimize weaknesses. Asking the devs to toy with anything is dangerous and you may hate the new way more than the old way. Your setup could go from nearly perfect to junk with just a bit of tweaked code.

While I am not entirely unsympathetic to the col line captain's plight, to be blunt, few of them take the effort to equip their ship to deal with blindspotters and even fewer still pay enough attention or fly well enough to have a chance against a decent strike. There are at least 3 sure fire methods I've seen used against my strike by lines that work 89-99% of the time and a couple more that can certainly ruin my day or cost me a kill. But most lines seem to prefer to moan than think about all the ways they could turn the table and ruin the strikes day instead of being roasted on the 5 gun spit.


Lol Dude excuse me but where is logic a striker to ram the back of the ship every time they try to hit my blind spot and the most interesting part of that is to ram my burning engines :D

Btw i'm opened for solutions, my ship is Adv. Jotunn, tell me some advice :D

[Reconomgwtfbbq]

I have sent 3 letters to support and asked that they would be passed on to the developers, last one featured screenshots from each ship placed ontop of each other to compare blindspots and weapon placements. Nothing has been done thus far, I contacted them about a year ago. Fact still remains

Banshee/Scythe

Both ships actually live up to their role when going up against strikes, the have weapon placements which give them a 98% shooting angle in all directions.

The Banshee does hold one advantage being that its guns are closer together meaning that is a escort spinning fight the Banshee holds the advantage.
However, the banshee holds a TINY blindspot which can easily be countered simply by moving where as the Scythe has none.

Wraith/Maul

Pretty much the same size in blindspots the Wraith however takes both advantages here. Its gun placement is way closer/piled up than the on the Maul so once again, in a Escort vs Escort fight it actually holds the advantage since it does not have a long snout from where it needs to fire it's weapons. Some may say that the Maul therefore gains the advantage of having +21 meters (or yards, I dont know the measurements BSG uses) on the front. So the Maul can therefore be argued as a better ship when involving missile defense and being able to deal 20-50 more damage should it meet its equal in ship equipment due to a slightly faster engagement from the 2 front guns.
To get specific in regards to blind spots, the Maul has the biggest blindspot of the two. Both ships are forced to install either mine launcher or slide in order to counter strikes.

Spectre/Glaive

Boy am I going to get flamed on this, never good to argue with support ships. A proper equipted glaive/spectre can counter any strike or escort due to its many computer slots. Though both ships hold blind spots, the are easily countered by simply coming to a hault, gun placement on both ships will then do it's job.
As for Escort vs Escort the Spectre holds superier gunplacement and will win a spinning match.

Liche/Halberd

What you've all been waiting for.. here goes. The Halberd is a joke and at any time would I recommend getting a Advanced Maul instead. Let me explain why.
The Halberd has a BIGGER blindspot than the Maul (yep, its true, dont believe me? Go place on a maul on a Halberd ingame and look for yourself). This ALSO means that the gun placement is worse than the Mauls.
Now some may argue that the Halberd has 1 additional gun, unfortunately the Maul can counter this with its superior Hull slots, HP and Armor. If properly installed, it can STILL top the HP of a advanced Halberd AND throw in a highlvl armor plate, increasing its armor making it take less damage than the Halberd.
Sure, the Halberd is faster and can turn (only slihgtly) faster, so what about in a Escort vs Escort? Well, the Maul doesn't play that way, it is not meant for hunting or chasing. In a Maul, you and wait for something to engage you. I would dare call the two equal in a fight against eachother.
But what when either is faced with a Liche?
Let's face it, the Liche is probably the best engineered ship in the entire game. It's weapon placement gives it SUCH a huge advantage that the only tiny blindspot is on its back. Unfortunately, it can simply stop its engines and turn making it impossible for a strike to kill.
And since the Halberd has worse gunplacement and blindspot than the Maul, it doesn't really stand up against a Liche.... at all.

Jotunn/Jourmung

Comparing the two is actually just as bad as comparing the Liche to the Halberd. Lets look at the weapon placement. The Jourmung is FAR superior. Especially when it comes to the 4 year guns on the Jutunn, I honestly do not know what good they are for if anything at all.

Vanir/Hel

I actually saw a Hel ride the Vanirs blindspot 2 days ago. Enough said. Both ships have blindspots, but I think the Vanir is the King of blindspots.

Gungnir/Nidhogg

How here is something interesting. Every cylon will say the Gungnir is superior, but is that really true? No. Then why do the cylons think so? Because the Gungnirs front guns will have almost +100 range more than the Nidhoggs. But that is its ONLY advantage nor will the fire be within optimal range, so chance to hit is still worthless.
The Nidhogg is another masterpiece of Cylon engineering. Close cornered weapon palcement which even allows it to fire BACKWARDS!
When up against the gungnir, sure the gungnir will start shooting +100 sooner but ALL the nidhogg has to do is get close and because of the gungnirs length it can easily put the two/three front guns out of use. What good is a gungnir vs a nidhogg when it is only able to fire 3 guns vs 6 guns? The length of the gungnir also makes it a sitting duck for escorts and strikes because of its blindspot.

Fenrir/Aesir

Another tricky one, but the fenrir still holds superiority. Though they pretty much have the same length, the Aesir is actually longer. Meaning that the two weapons on the rear are not optimal whilst the Fenrirs can fire more often during the start of the match and it also gives it a slight advantage while running (should they be at the coresponding distance of eachother)
Both hold blindspots, but there is no arguing that the Aesir holds the biggest of the two.

Carriers

Unfortunately I do not own one and have never flown one, so I cannot comment on those. Nor are they really combat ships, they are mobile OP's. I am yet to see a player take out his carrier to do dailies >_>

So there you have it, blindspots explained in detail and the different advantages and disadvantages between the ships. Though from my personal perspective the cylon ships seem superior by far. All seem to have their weaponplacements packed really close together and with little if any blindspots at all.

Conclussion: While the Colonials are forced to install slides or minelaunchers (or gyro's) to increase their survivability against random oponents the Cylons have more options because they simply do not always need to be prepared for such due to the ship shape and weaponplacement offering them more protection than the Colonials.
I think BGO favors the Cylons and that there is no game balance what so ever when comparing ships factionwise with the exception of strike class ships.

Note: All these comparisons were made with ships of same equipment and equipment level.

[FBI_Spy]

@ Recon, I agree with you on basically everything there except that slide isn't always the solution. For example, a Maul can still be slaughter by a strike exploiting its top of ship blindspot (as in, all that bulk in front of your engines), regardless of how much your try to slide or turn. This applies to just about all flat ships, and guess what? Most Colonial ships are flat which means they suffer this same blindspot disadvantage.

[andy_wxm]

So there you have it, blindspots explained in detail and the different advantages and disadvantages between the ships. Though from my personal perspective the cylon ships seem superior by far. All seem to have their weaponplacements packed really close together and with little if any blindspots at all.

Conclussion: While the Colonials are forced to install slides or minelaunchers (or gyro's) to increase their survivability against random oponents the Cylons have more options because they simply do not always need to be prepared for such due to the ship shape and weaponplacement offering them more protection than the Colonials.
I think BGO favors the Cylons and that there is no game balance what so ever when comparing ships factionwise with the exception of strike class ships.



Load out options are always problematic.

Could never have a 3 RCS duct / 3 turbo Halberd - would be suicide!

I hate it when people say : "learn to fly your ship" Er,, we can!

The Maul is terrible <sorry> but high level colonials still fly 'em yet its rare to see Wraiths flow by anyone other than noobs.


Sort it out BP!

[FBI_Spy]

Load out options are always problematic.

Could never have a 3 RCS duct / 3 turbo Halberd - would be suicide!

I hate it when people say : "learn to fly your ship" Er,, we can!

The Maul is terrible <sorry> but high level colonials still fly 'em yet its rare to see Wraiths flow by anyone other than noobs.


Sort it out BP!
Yet strangely the Wraith is actually pretty good when coupled with Slide compared to the Maul

[Weird_Al]

The blindspots add to a degree of difficulty for a pilot you have to make due with what you got or get a new ship that better suits your fighting style.
Now then to blindspots themselves if in RL you have a large warship and it gets attacked you would find it would indeed have blindspots.
My arguement is that in life everything such as train, planes, and automobiles has blindspots so why should this game be any different.
If you dont like the ship your flying, and cannot learn how to best use your ship and its abilities, and cannot adapt to an ever changing battlefield then i suggest change ships or quit the game.

[ZER0COOL]

The blindspots add to a degree of difficulty for a pilot you have to make due with what you got or get a new ship that better suits your fighting style.
Now then to blindspots themselves if in RL you have a large warship and it gets attacked you would find it would indeed have blindspots.
My arguement is that in life everything such as train, planes, and automobiles has blindspots so why should this game be any different.
If you dont like the ship your flying, and cannot learn how to best use your ship and its abilities, and cannot adapt to an ever changing battlefield then i suggest change ships or quit the game.

This isn't real life, this is a game and in games things get balanced regardless of how they may work in real life.

You are "supposed" to have a base equal chance for victory regardless of the side you choose. The designers probably didn't realise the impact there designs would have on actual gameplay, and as they quit shortly after launching the game they ever got chance to fix it.

Not really sure why the successive Dev teams have failed to address this, probably because it's a whole lot of work, and the fact people spend shed loads of cash in an attempt to buy one of these mythical Liches. They don't want to break the cash cows.

[FBI_Spy]

Not really sure why the successive Dev teams have failed to address this, probably because it's a whole lot of work, and the fact people spend shed loads of cash in an attempt to buy one of these mythical Liches. They don't want to break the cash cows.
A. They simply haven't had the time to fix it (this is the non-beta team now, which is much smaller than the beta team)
B. This just recently became a big public issue again (particularly after this thread opened) and before that it wasn't on a lot of people's radar as a big must-fix issue.
C. BP wouldn't mind the extra cash, but they'd also get cash from the other faction by giving them a reason to bother with PvP when not using brute force.